Melanie Oliveiro 00:00
Now, “Made in SG” with Melanie Oliveiro.
Melanie Oliveiro 00:11
A very good afternoon to you, I’m CNA938’s Melanie Oliveiro, and Made in SG today looks at a made in SG book all about decentralized finance and is also written, somewhat with the MAS or Monetary Authority of Singapore in mind when it comes to cryptocurrencies and stablecoins. The book in question is titled Decentralizing Finance: How Defi, Digital Assets and Distributed Ledger Technology Are Transforming Finance and it’s written by Kenneth Bok, known as a blockchain and digital assets expert. Kenneth says his book is the best one to understand Bitcoin and the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem. So let's see what he means. Hi, Kenneth, and welcome to CNA938.
Kenneth Bok 00:59
Thank you, Melanie, it's great to see you.
Melanie Oliveiro 01:00
It's great to see you again. Hey Kenneth, the last time I saw you face to face was just before Singapore went into circuit breakers, CB, COVID-19 lockdown and 2020. I interviewed you as the Head of Growth and Strategy at Zilliqa, the blockchain platform. So that's four years ago, what have you been up to these past four years? Because, four years later, you're now an author?
Kenneth Bok 01:27
Yes, I've continued on in my blockchain journey. And Zilliqa was a great experience heading up an actual blockchain company. So I've continued on investing and advising early stage FinTech startups. And also sort of doing advisory services, helping them with their product growth, investing in crypto assets, of course. I'm doing some trading also.
Melanie Oliveiro 01:51
And let's talk about the book in question. Because I want to know about your writing process, because I'm assuming it's quite a departure from what you used to do before unless, of course, you have written before. What were the challenging times putting the book Decentralizing Finance together? Are you a natural writer to begin with?
Kenneth Bok 02:11
Well, I've always loved books, right. So I would say that I love writing. Writing a book is a different project altogether. It's 70,000 words. So you have to really get very good at structuring what you want to say. I would say that book writing is research, writing and outlining, right? So having the scaffolding for what you want to actually write is very important, as well as to continually iterate on what exactly your opinion of the field is. Yeah, so there's, of course, a lot of other issues with book writing, which is around copyright issues. So getting copyright clearance for the diagrams you want to use, you know, making sure that your IP is protected also. So it's many other issues that come with authoring.
Melanie Oliveiro 03:02
So how long did that take?
Kenneth Bok 03:03
Nearly a year, a year plus. It was a full-time endeavor for me. So quite a sacrifice but I'm very happy with the product and very happy with my publisher also, Wiley, which is one of the best finance publishers.
Melanie Oliveiro 03:16
Did you already have a deal with Wiley to put out this book or you decided to just put it out there first and then find a publisher?
Kenneth Bok 03:24
Good question. Wiley actually had in mind to publish a DeFi book. So actually, they headhunted me more or less, to do the book, on LinkedIn, no less. So that goes to show: having a social media presence for professional uses is important.
Melanie Oliveiro 03:39
It is indeed. And here you are four years later, COVID has passed, and we're together again talking about your latest venture, which is excellent. How can the layperson who has little or basic knowledge of decentralized finance get into this book and get familiar with all the vast terminology?
Kenneth Bok 03:58
It's a good question, Melanie, it is almost like learning a foreign language. There are many terms. I would say, just like learning a foreign language, don't get stuck with the details, just make sure that you know what exactly you want to learn and let it wash all over you. Of course, I do offer terminology and definitions at the start, at the very start of the book. But I would say just take your time and pick into the spots that interest you, that are relevant to you. Of course, in my book, I also kind of espouse as you alluded to earlier with the MAS approach, is more on the stablecoins, right, we can go into that a little bit later but stablecoins are a genuine use case for crypto and DeFi. There are of course many other elements in DeFi that are relevant to financial institutions. But, you know, as a layperson, I would say you can definitely skim through the book, just see what appeals to you. And you can also read the conclusion which is where my opinions are.
Melanie Oliveiro 05:00
Yes, there are conclusions at the end of each chapter. Was that your idea? Or did you work with the Wiley editors to say, it's always handy to have a conclusion, a summary of what I've just underlined at the end of each chapter?
Kenneth Bok 05:12
No, that was my own structure. I felt it was important for me to kind of start and conclude every chapter like that, and kind of summarize it as if I was giving a seminar.
Melanie Oliveiro 05:24
Okay. Now, you said that the book’s approach generally aligns with the Monetary Authority of Singapore, MAS’s policy on cryptocurrencies, that they are risky, and generally not suitable for retail investors. Can you explain that more to us? How are we going to get an understanding of that, as we read Decentralizing Finance?
Kenneth Bok 05:44
Yeah, so that's a very important topic. Let me just say that as a blanket statement, I agree with the MAS. Right. So if you don't kind of- are in the weeds with crypto, you're much better off not touching it. Because out of all the crypto assets out there, only one or two really hold value over the long run, right. One of them is Bitcoin, which now has an ETF, you know, it's accessible for even retail investors to buy an ETF through your stockbroker in Singapore. So that, that comes with kind of wading into the wild west of crypto requires a lot of time, right, it requires a lot of time and expertise. And also, you have to be prepared to lose everything. Right. So storing of the assets, the security of the assets, the finding out what happens in the kitchen, of issuing these assets, takes a substantial amount of time, and we have even got to gain the financial investment in these things. So that's why I say as a blanket statement, you know, my parents asked me for my opinion on whether or not you should buy these things, I generally say no, but you know, if you want to buy a little bit, you know, sure, but don't go crazy, you know, make sure you watch your risk and everything associated with that. So as a general rule, when the regulators and MAS says that generally there are no economic fundamentals attached to a lot of these assets, they are correct. You know, because a lot of these assets don't have cash flows, for example, they are not companies that generate cash flows and will issue out dividends, you know, have a growth pattern, what is behind these things often are very software driven, a lot of that is driven by hype, and they could be the next big thing, they could not be. But as a general rule, they are all unregulated, right? So regulation is very important when it comes to financial products. So that's where I generally align with what the MAS is saying.
Melanie Oliveiro 07:37
And then the other, more or less stable crypto you wanted to name is?
Kenneth Bok 07:42
Well, if you look at where the developments are with a lot of financial institutions looking to offer ETF products, it's generally Bitcoin and Ether.
Melanie Oliveiro 07:53
Okay. Ethereum. Okay.
Kenneth Bok 07:55
Yes, Ether being the native asset of Ethereum. Ethereum is real, okay. Ethereum is a very important sort of technological innovation, I would say it's a- it's kind of like a word computer, even the MAS is innovating on Ethereum. Right, and some of their projects, Project Guardian and Project Orchid, you know, at the last Singapore FinTech fest, some of the pilots that involved XSGD, our local stablecoin. And Amazon and Grab did in fact, use a lot of technologies that came from Ethereum. Right. So, but that is, there are many caveats there. You can use the technology without involving the token, right, which is generally how the enterprises want to approach it.
Melanie Oliveiro 08:36
Right. Okay. Now, let's talk about reg tech or regulatory technology, how you explained it where crypto reg tech solutions, regulatory technology solutions can help with fraud prevention, anti money laundering, and fighting terrorism financing. Can you tell us more and give us some examples because Kenneth, we hear every other month or so how companies have been swindled and the latest- the theft that has happened in the crypto world, that kind of thing. Yes.
Kenneth Bok 09:12
Yes. Regulation and monitoring what happens in the blockchain world requires technology, right? So this is where we have blockchain analytics companies who have developed products for law enforcement, for regulators, for crypto exchanges to monitor what happens on-chain. Because detecting fraud, suspicious activity, you know, all sort of bad stuff that happens in finance is different. It's a different environment. So you need different tools. So there certainly are a whole suite of tools that are now available. The level of sort of sophistication in monitoring, what happens on-chain, I would say is comparable to what happens in regular banking and FinTech applications.
Melanie Oliveiro 09:56
How long have they been around already?
Kenneth Bok 09:58
A couple of years.
Melanie Oliveiro 09:59
A couple of years?
Kenneth Bok 10:00
Yeah, a couple of years. These analytics companies-
Melanie Oliveiro 10:02
Yes ok. Not too long?
Kenneth Bok 10:03
Well, yeah, yes, no, I mean, quite a number. I mean, their track record is pretty good. Even, say, the US Department of Justice, hm? Many seizures in the order of billions. And if you read some of the reports that come out from the DOJ and the Justice Department, very sophisticated leverage of these tools to nab these guys who you know, may have hacked the crypto or, you know, taking it off some dark web stuff, you know, very nasty stuff and they have apprehended these people, by using these tools. So it is definitely being well- law enforcement is definitely aware of these tools.
Melanie Oliveiro 10:39
Alright, your book, Decentralizing Finance also covers stablecoins, you mentioned it just now. Stablecoins aim to solve the volatility problem of cryptocurrencies in that they represent government issued currency but on the blockchain. So three stablecoins are now regulated by the MAS. That is, single currency stablecoins or SCS pegged to the Sing. Dollar. How does one make passive income with stablecoins?
Kenneth Bok 11:11
Excellent question, Melanie. So before I get to the passive income, let me just say a little bit about stablecoins. You know, it's a kind of important concept, because now you have fiat or government money on the blockchain. So this enables for freedom basically. Enables for your money to move across the blockchain network, which is where financial inclusion can progress with the blockchain. Passive income is certainly possible with stablecoins, there are many opportunities in sort of decentralized exchanges. So centralized exchanges, they will look like a fixed deposit. Yeah, you lock up your money for a certain amount of time, and then you get a certain yield. Last checked this morning, I think the yield for US dollar stablecoin is about 10%. But, bear in mind, you bear the risk of the decentralized exchange or the centralized exchange, as a lot of trust involved, you know, as you're, of course, better off trusting something that's regulated. But, I would say that, because now stablecoins, and as you as you mentioned, the SCS legislation is now been passed by MAS, we in fact, now it is possible for Singaporeans to buy regulated stablecoins on regulated exchanges. Which for me, is a very good way to get your feet wet into this crazy world. Because it's not speculative. And it's a real use case. You can actually pay people using, well, XSGD is our local stablecoin. It's real money. But it lives on the blockchain. So it's a very different experience from say, paying someone with PayNow.
Melanie Oliveiro 12:46
Okay, XSGD, yeah? So when do you think it’s going to be more mainstream that even the lady down the street, my neighbor can start using it?
Kenneth Bok 12:57
Good question. I think it comes with the acceptance of these stablecoins. You know, crypto has definitely- accepting crypto for payment is definitely on the rise. I wouldn't say it's widespread. Certainly use cases like E commerce, right? Crypto companies who are crypto native will take these payments. But I would also say it comes with new functionality. The Project Orchid, for example, is trying to embed programmable payments. Where you have things like, you know- one example like I like to give is the CDC voucher, because you can only pay certain Heartland stores with the CDC voucher. Right. So-
Melanie Oliveiro 13:38
The physical one, or?
Kenneth Bok 13:40
Your online one-
Melanie Oliveiro 13:41
On the phone.
Kenneth Bok 13:42
Remember you claim your CDC voucher.
Melanie Oliveiro 13:43
Because some of them are physical also.
Kenneth Bok 13:45
Oh, all right. I didn't know that. Well, you see, what the MAS is trying to do is to embed that programmability just like certain flags, you know, like it's a Heartland shop, so I can only spend the shop. But what if we could do more with this programmability? What if I could give my money to a scholarship awardee, but make sure that that money is not spent on other kinds of things like alcohol, for example, right? So you're enabling for- or if I wanted that payment only to be distributed at a certain time, right? So this is what the whole vision of the blockchain and crypto and money, programmable money is really about. But it has to translate into the real world, with the aid of the central banks, which is where I think the MAS is doing a great job in translating these visions into reality.
Melanie Oliveiro 14:31
So it has to be user friendly. And people don't even think twice about it. Yeah.
Kenneth Bok 14:35
Yes. The user experience has to be good. It has to be very clear, you know. And of course, it has to be widespread. The merchants have to learn how to get on board with these things. You know, this is complex, right? We're talking about programming money. So, I think the MAS is also trying to figure out what exactly do you want to do with these projects?
Melanie Oliveiro 14:57
We already succeeded with the CDC voucher so I think in the collective mainstream consciousness the act of doing that is already there.
Kenneth Bok 15:06
Yeah, yes. But that I think is the tip of the iceberg.
Melanie Oliveiro 15:11
I see.
Kenneth Bok 15:12
There are many other- for instance charities, give you another use case, right. So it's the misuse of funds that I think everyone is trying to stop in charities. So again, if we can trace the money that's being used within charities and stop them from being used in ways that we- that grants should stop them from being used and that's also possible with programmable money.
Melanie Oliveiro 15:34
I'm talking to author and someone I haven't seen in a long time, four years, almost half a decade, eh Kenneth?
Kenneth Bok 15:43
Time flies.
Melanie Oliveiro 15:43
You look different now also.
Kenneth Bok 15:44
Ah yes, I'm doing some exercise.
Melanie Oliveiro 15:47
Looking very, very, very- a healthier version of Kenneth Bok. But you know what, it's all good, Kenneth Bok. Of course Kenneth Bok, B-O-K. Remember the spelling of his surname because you're going to look out for his book in our bookstores. Kenneth Bok, a blockchain and digital assets expert and author of Decentralizing Finance: How Defi, Digital Assets and Distributed Ledger Technology Are Transforming Finance. It's now out and it's published by Wiley. This is Made in SG and I’m Melanie Oliveiro for CNA938.
Male announcer 16:20
Before making any decisions based on the information in our program, please consult your own financial advisors to take into account your investment objectives, financial situation and individual needs.
Melanie Oliveiro 16:31
Moving on now to North Korea. And about half of North Korea's foreign currency revenue reportedly comes from malicious cyber activities. That's according to a UN report which says the funds generated by illicit cyber means have bankrolled 40% of the nation's weapons programs. The report says Pyongyang cyber activities are being carried out to generate income while evading UN sanctions. The UN found that Pyongyang’s cyber attackers could be responsible for 17 cryptocurrency heists last year, worth more than 750 million US Dollars in total. It's also investigating 3 billion US Dollars worth of North Korean cyber heists between 2017 and 2023. UN experts warned that this could be tied to North Korea's intensified nuclear and missile programs.
Female Announcer 17:30
Now Made in SG with Melanie Oliveiro.
Melanie Oliveiro 17:39
And let's continue Made in SG with my guest, author of Decentralizing Finance, Kenneth Bok. He is also a blockchain and digital assets expert and remember to look out for his book in our bookshelves and bookstores as well. Hey Kenneth, can you tell us how credit card companies are working with crypto tech into their product lineups? And how customers have been using them so far?
Kenneth Bok 18:05
Yes. So if you look at the biggest card networks, such as Visa and MasterCard, I think they've definitely been integrating crypto into their payment networks. So you, in essence, some- a lot of these cards now are able to spend your crypto at the point of purchase. They will convert your crypto holdings into fiat currency and just spend it like that. And I would also add that actually recently there's been quite exciting development with Grab, you can in fact, top up your Grab finance balance with stablecoins and Bitcoin. And you can also use that to spend on your Grab card, I believe.
Melanie Oliveiro 18:45
Okay. And you've also written a chapter on DeFi risks. What's the biggest hack in recent memory that you'd like to tell us about, that's explained in your book? And as you know, Kenneth, I was reading the news and you were with me-
Kenneth Bok 18:59
Yeah, that was a funny one.
Melanie Oliveiro 19:02
Ironic, right?
Kenneth Bok 19:03
You know, I didn't want to name- So, okay, so this one is, the Lazarus group actually is quite an infamous crypto hacking group that is linked with the North Korean government. And one of the biggest hacks was called The Ronin Hack in 2022. And it's $600 million. I won't go into the details of it. It's very complicated. But suffice to say that there was a social engineering attack involved, you know, this particular chain had a low amount of nodes. And you know, this is a state-sponsored level hacker. So these guys are very serious. These are not your daily average Joe hackers, so very serious stuff that's happening, which is of course linked to, you know, their WMD program, which is very, very, very serious stuff. So I think it highlights the point that we definitely need this ecosystem regulated.
Melanie Oliveiro 20:04
Yeah. And you talked about that just now. So it’s getting more sophisticated to catch the so called “bad guys”. There is tech that is catching up with them. You believe that DeFi, decentralized finance, can significantly improve financial inclusion in developing countries? How could this be achieved in an ideal world? Because in your book, you said: “Yeah, it can be possible”. But you listed a lot of things.
Kenneth Bok 20:31
This is very complicated- so let me try and simplify it. Essentially, the tech is there. Right? It's a question of, because finance is so regulated, essentially, the financial regulators need to get on board. That is to say, the financial regulators of the developing world, and also the global financial, sort of standard setting bodies, such as the IMF and the BIS. So you know, there needs to be a high level buy-in from the regulatory community. Reg tech is, of course, needed right? Education for how to implement these systems is required. The user experience, you know, definitely needs to be improved, because right now, if you stay on board with stablecoins, you need to have quite a high level of cyber expertise. I mean, not that it's that hard. You need a password manager, you need to store your seed phrase carefully. You know, because if you lose your seed phrase, that's it, you know. So there's no recovery, there's no one to call, you know, there's no service support. So, you know, there's a lot that needs to be improved with all of these things. And not to mention, every country needs to preserve monetary sovereignty, right? That is to say they are in charge of their own money. You cannot have another foreign country, issuing their currency in your country, you have to have oversight over your own currency. But if we're talking about blockchains, then they need to be in stablecoins or some kind of a tokenized deposit. So how do we get that in place? You see, that's a very long-term question.
Melanie Oliveiro 22:02
It's a massive infrastructure.
Kenneth Bok 22:05
It’s massive. There are so many things that need to be solved. But that's why I said, the problem- that's why I wrote the book also is to explain it, hopefully, to kind of convince people that this technology is not just for speculation, there actually is very, very good use cases. It's very, very positive use cases that can help improve our financial system that actually is quite clunky. You know, a lot of the back end stuff, the infrastructure of our financial system our global financial system. Let’s say we want to remit money to Zimbabwe. You have to go through so many steps and you're paying all these intermediaries of this money. But blockchain, the beauty of blockchain is that it enables for peer-to-peer transfers, right? So it's a technology that can do a lot but it needs to comply with financial regulation.
Melanie Oliveiro 22:50
Yeah, that's right. And that's where we are right now. We're in this particular stage of it all. And yes, it can help developing countries level up in quite a few ways as well. You wrote that the shape shifting and dynamic nature of crypto could make your book outdated the moment it's printed, so you acknowledge that. So what new developments have cropped up since Decentralizing Finance, your book, was printed? Would that be the Bitcoin ETF exchange traded funds you talked about just now that were once hot but according to latest reports, is now drying up a little bit?
Kenneth Bok 23:27
Well actually Bitcoin ETFs have- the inflows have been increasing, ever since January. And Bitcoin ETFs were approved. I would say that's a positive development for Bitcoin actually, as that one asset that I think most, quite a few financial institutions are now taking more seriously. In terms of updates to the book, I would say stablecoin regulation has also updated quite a lot. You know, Japan is looking quite seriously into allowing banks to issue stablecoins. So I think we really want to keep an eye on how, say, Japanese stablecoins will be using E-commerce, right, whether or not they're better, they're more efficient than credit card payments and how instant bank transfers and so forth. So, yeah, it's quite a lot. Of course, a book covers a substantial territory. But I would say those are two things that stand out to me.
Melanie Oliveiro 24:22
Sometimes, what also Japan is trying to, well- I wouldn't say fix, but to reconcile within themselves is because they have- when it comes to transactions and getting orders through and payments through they need, they have this stamp.
Kenneth Bok 24:41
Yes, there is a physical stamp, right?
Melanie Oliveiro 24:44
That is needed for transactions. There is a word for it. So they also have to reconcile that as well.
Kenneth Bok 24:49
This warrants a trip to Japan!
Melanie Oliveiro 24:53
Yes, that’s right. And another update to the book. Of course, of course. Let's talk about non fungible tokens, Kenneth. NFT's which are digital assets, representing real objects, like art, music and videos, they were all the rage a few years ago. Distracted us from COVID, also, because that’s when the-
Kenneth Bok 25:10
Yes, a lot of-
Melanie Oliveiro 24:13
So many good things distracting us from COVID.
Kenneth Bok 25:14
Funny action, yes.
Melanie Oliveiro 25:16
Yes. There- now NFT's are being called worthless, and that they have- and then also other critics are calling them- they're still okay, they said NFT’s still have potential. What do you think though?
Kenneth Bok 25:31
I think it's like art, okay, you walk into any art gallery, you know, and you asked for advice from the gallery owner, they're gonna say, buy it, if you like it. You know, don't buy it as an investment. If you're happy to own it, then do so. I mean, NFT's are actually a very general wrapper, you can put anything in an NFT, easy. So I think, you know, what you're referring to is all the speculative- it's just a picture and some crazy money was being, you know, floated for some of these things. It's a mixed bag, we have to get a bit more granular exactly what NFT is, but as a general technology, I definitely still think NFT's have a ways to go.
Melanie Oliveiro 26:14
They have more room to grow. And-
Kenneth Bok 26:16
There’s more products coming. There are better experiences coming. There are products that will not be so volatile. There are games that are being built with NFT's in mind. You know, as a player of Magic the Gathering many, many years ago. You know, NFT's are a perfect use case for those kinds of collectible cards.
Melanie Oliveiro 26:36
Yes indeed.
Kenneth Bok 26:38
So yeah, we can do that online. Why not?
Melanie Oliveiro 26:40
Okay, so don't write them off yet, ah? NFT’s are still around. It's early days yet. But just be- well if it involves a lot of your money, just think twice about it and speak to people in the know. Let's talk about Libra, the former digital currency launched by Facebook. And of course, Facebook is now called Meta. Libra had a change name to Diem. So, whatever the name, again, critics came in and say, it's a big flop. So what happened?
Kenneth Bok 27:11
Yeah, Melanie, this is a very important precedent in how CBDCs came about. So, you know,
Melanie Oliveiro 27:18
CBDCs are central bank digital-
Kenneth Bok 27:20
Central Bank Digital Currencies. Right. So it flopped, because, in essence, it was opposed by the G20. Right. So this is where we get into some really big shifts in monetary power. I think in essence, the G20 looked at what was happening with Libra and said, no, a social media platform, a big private company tech platform cannot have the right to dictate such monetary power over three- I don't know what it is, three and a half billion users? Because they were, in essence, wanted to launch a stablecoin. Yeah. Right. So I think the G 20 invoked their right as sovereign countries to dictate monetary policy and how money should be conducted in the modern world. Yeah, so that was the big story. But then obviously, it developed into CBDCs, which is also covered in my book. And that's, that's also a very important topic.
Melanie Oliveiro 28:12
Okay, so let's talk about that chapter on CBDCs, or Central Bank, Digital Currencies. A CBDC is money issued by a central bank that exists only in electronic form and can be used for payments and other transactions within an economy. Critics say CBDCs are a threat to user privacy. There are quite a few articles written about that. Your thoughts? Because you wrote that this is scare mongering by some.
Kenneth Bok 28:40
Yeah, so there's a- this is a very, again, a very important topic. My position is let's give the governments a chance to explain themselves. What they want to do with this CBDC thing. Because there are good grounds for launching CBDCs because, in essence, there's a lot of intermediation that's happening from by- So it used to be that consumers had direct relationships with banks. Now there are a lot of FinTechs in the middle that intermediate the relationships with banks. So the actual data collection by the FinTechs is massive. Would you prefer that the government collects this data or would you prefer that the FinTech collects this data? One is a public agency, one is a private company. Right? So it depends on which government execute and how they execute these CBDC systems. I certainly think that CBDCs can foster financial inclusion. Where that is giving people access to financial services, such as in emerging countries. They can also help fiscal stimulus, right. And I'm just saying, but, again, if you hopefully live in a democratic country, which I'm sure you do, you have a right to know what's happening to your money, you should be informed of what are CBDCs and you should be able to ask questions to your leaders.
Melanie Oliveiro 29:55
Okay, all right. So remember there is quite a segment there written on CBDCs in Kenneth's book, Decentralizing Finance. Looking to the future, Kenneth, you see that the growth of embedded payments through wearables, IoT devices, and biometrics, all of these are in existence today. Now, these may someday make physical cash and cards obsolete. So can you give us an example? Because the only thing I could- the only example I could think of was paying for a cup of coffee using an iris scanner? Is that a possibility?
Kenneth Bok 30:32
It certainly is. I think face recognition is more common these days. In China, you can certainly pay for things using face recognition already. But let me just backtrack to your question. I am all for more options. I don't think the elimination of cash is a good idea. And I don't think many governments are sort of hard lining and say we must get rid of cash. I think more options are good, right? There certainly will be. And everything, of course, is mediated through your phone these days. But with CBDCs, again with China, for example, there are nice offline- they’re like cash cards, but it's like a cash card with a biometric sensor on it like a fingerprint sensor. So I think the more options that consumers have, the better because then they have more control over how they want to manage their finances. And of course, then we get into the information gathering and all this stuff. You know, sometimes actually, the government doesn't want to know so much about this data, also, right? So there are many ways to provide more options for consumers.
Melanie Oliveiro 31:33
Yeah, but definitely not ease them in and phase out cash. That's not the intention here.
Kenneth Bok 31:39
I don’t think so.
Melanie Oliveiro 31:40
Kenneth, thank you so much for-
Kenneth Bok 31:41
Thank you, Melanie, great questions. And great to be with you.
Melanie Oliveiro 31:43
Yes, it’s so lovely to see you again. So thank you so much for joining me on CNA938 and congratulations once again on putting your book out.
Kenneth Bok 31:51
Thank you.
Melanie Oliveiro 31:53
Kenneth Bok is a blockchain and digital assets expert also the author of Decentralizing Finance: How Defi, Digital Assets and Distributed Ledger Technology Are Transforming Finance published by Wiley. This has been Made in SG and I’m Melanie Oliveiro for CNA938.